Mech CR?
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Jaxom Faux
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- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:25 pm
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goodmangames
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
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Well, I know the official game designer should never make the following confession, but truth be told:
I don't have a standard formula. The CR rules break down when it comes to mechs. I eyeball it and award XP based on how hard the battle is... if it's a reasonable encounter, the PCs get XP based as if it were a CR of their level. If it's harder, I award more; if it's easier, I award less.
If anyone wants to work out a system, I'd love to see it. With mech combats I've seen the full range. Some of these are given as examples in The Shardsfall Quest... a party of 1st level characters in a dump-truck mech can defeat 30 orcs. How do you calc the CR for that? Just the same, a party of 2nd or 3rd level characters in a Raptor mech can defeat a much more skilled Irontooth pilot if they use good tactics. (This is the last encounter in the Shardsfall Quest.) But not if they're not using good tactics, or if they're unlucky. In our playtests, the PCs won by the hair on their chinny-chin-chins after a lengthy battle where the deciding factor was the half-orc barbarian/steamborg's decision to get out of the mech and expose himself to tramples in order to power-attack the enemy mech's legs.
Basically, I haven't come up with a great system yet. I'm open to suggestions.
I don't have a standard formula. The CR rules break down when it comes to mechs. I eyeball it and award XP based on how hard the battle is... if it's a reasonable encounter, the PCs get XP based as if it were a CR of their level. If it's harder, I award more; if it's easier, I award less.
If anyone wants to work out a system, I'd love to see it. With mech combats I've seen the full range. Some of these are given as examples in The Shardsfall Quest... a party of 1st level characters in a dump-truck mech can defeat 30 orcs. How do you calc the CR for that? Just the same, a party of 2nd or 3rd level characters in a Raptor mech can defeat a much more skilled Irontooth pilot if they use good tactics. (This is the last encounter in the Shardsfall Quest.) But not if they're not using good tactics, or if they're unlucky. In our playtests, the PCs won by the hair on their chinny-chin-chins after a lengthy battle where the deciding factor was the half-orc barbarian/steamborg's decision to get out of the mech and expose himself to tramples in order to power-attack the enemy mech's legs.
Basically, I haven't come up with a great system yet. I'm open to suggestions.
how's this sound:
the CR for a single mech is calculated as though the mech was a seperate entity from the pilot(s) and is then adjusted for pilot skill
for instance, a large mech could have a base CR of 4 to 6, based on HD (which is based on mech type)
then take the HD and determine what the mech's BAB would be based on it's own HD (generally speaking, this number should be either in the 1/1 or 3/4 BAB progression, not sure which) and compare this to the average operator MAB (Mech Attack Bonus) and adjust the CR based on how far from the same they are (a mech with an opperator who has a bonus equal to what the mech would have on it's own would leave the CR unaffected)
let's say that for every doubling of the difference in BAB the CR increases by 1
so BAB +2 higher would be +1 to CR, +4 higher would be +2 CR , +8 = +3 CR
likewise, a low skilled pilot would cause the Mech CR to drop, using the same progression
since most monsters' CR is based on HD, this seems best, but since most monsters ahve a BAB that is based on thier HD as well, and the pilot supplies the "BAB" of the mech with his MAB, this should be taken into account...
since mechs, using regular mech abilities, don't really seem to have any potentially game breaking power (all are just attack forms balanced for size) the weapons don't really matter in so far as determining mech power (except that i might adjust the CR up for a mech wielding weapons larger in size than itself, and down for a mech with a large amount of PU not used for crew or offensive ability)
and add CR for extra weapons that can be opperated in a round beyond the first pilot's ability (+1 per each doubling of usable weapons per round, say, just to throw out a number)
(edit: this is based on crew; a mech with one pilot and 4 weapons would ahve no change unless the pilot had the ability to operate four weapons in one round; a mech with 4 weapons and the pilots nessesary to operate them all every round would get the CR modified to +1 or +2)
then i would adjust the CR based on mech type, since some mechs (man powered) are inherently less powerful than others of the same size
considering that it would be nearly impossible to defeat a larger mech in straight up combat, the experience awards for it should be pretty good (and you wouldn't get experience for defeating a mech by taking the pilot out right away, just for defeating the pilot)
A city mech would have a CR in the hundreds, because it would be nearly impossible for a player to defeat one
in a mech on mech battle where two opponents are in mechs of the same power level, the mech's power isn't much a consideration, except for when one opponent is poor at best with mech use (a fighter with no mech experience) vs someone trained for mechs (a mech pilot/mech devil) in which case, i would raise the CR of the guy that's trained to use the mech (or lower the CR of the guy that's untrained and untalented)
*wanes creative*
uuuh....
right, then, you can take that as an apology for all those questions in the other thread
the CR for a single mech is calculated as though the mech was a seperate entity from the pilot(s) and is then adjusted for pilot skill
for instance, a large mech could have a base CR of 4 to 6, based on HD (which is based on mech type)
then take the HD and determine what the mech's BAB would be based on it's own HD (generally speaking, this number should be either in the 1/1 or 3/4 BAB progression, not sure which) and compare this to the average operator MAB (Mech Attack Bonus) and adjust the CR based on how far from the same they are (a mech with an opperator who has a bonus equal to what the mech would have on it's own would leave the CR unaffected)
let's say that for every doubling of the difference in BAB the CR increases by 1
so BAB +2 higher would be +1 to CR, +4 higher would be +2 CR , +8 = +3 CR
likewise, a low skilled pilot would cause the Mech CR to drop, using the same progression
since most monsters' CR is based on HD, this seems best, but since most monsters ahve a BAB that is based on thier HD as well, and the pilot supplies the "BAB" of the mech with his MAB, this should be taken into account...
since mechs, using regular mech abilities, don't really seem to have any potentially game breaking power (all are just attack forms balanced for size) the weapons don't really matter in so far as determining mech power (except that i might adjust the CR up for a mech wielding weapons larger in size than itself, and down for a mech with a large amount of PU not used for crew or offensive ability)
and add CR for extra weapons that can be opperated in a round beyond the first pilot's ability (+1 per each doubling of usable weapons per round, say, just to throw out a number)
(edit: this is based on crew; a mech with one pilot and 4 weapons would ahve no change unless the pilot had the ability to operate four weapons in one round; a mech with 4 weapons and the pilots nessesary to operate them all every round would get the CR modified to +1 or +2)
then i would adjust the CR based on mech type, since some mechs (man powered) are inherently less powerful than others of the same size
considering that it would be nearly impossible to defeat a larger mech in straight up combat, the experience awards for it should be pretty good (and you wouldn't get experience for defeating a mech by taking the pilot out right away, just for defeating the pilot)
A city mech would have a CR in the hundreds, because it would be nearly impossible for a player to defeat one
in a mech on mech battle where two opponents are in mechs of the same power level, the mech's power isn't much a consideration, except for when one opponent is poor at best with mech use (a fighter with no mech experience) vs someone trained for mechs (a mech pilot/mech devil) in which case, i would raise the CR of the guy that's trained to use the mech (or lower the CR of the guy that's untrained and untalented)
*wanes creative*
uuuh....
right, then, you can take that as an apology for all those questions in the other thread
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Jaxom Faux
- Far-Sighted Wanderer
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:25 pm
ummmm.....revision to earlier post....1/4 mechs hd = it's cr and count it as different from the cr's of the crew. hence 1 mech battle would be a (pulling numbers out of air) a cr 5 mech, cr 15 main pilot, cr 8 gunner, cr 5 gunner, and not counting any labor crew
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