Long-Term DCC Play

[Harley Stroh]

I always appreciate your critiques, Raven. They are well reasoned, and best of all, constructive.

Again, it is in Goodman Games' interest to show what a mini-sandbox for DCC looks like, because the mini-sandbox is the model on which larger sandbox games are built.

I see your point. Doom of the Savage Kings is a step (but only a step) in this direction. I'm interested in reading your take on it ... not because it's the perfect answer to your question, but because I think it will spur some conversation in the right direction.

//H

[Karaptis]

Did Conan take part in a campaign or did he do a series of adventures which made him into a king? I guess it depends on the player. Mine don't want to change the world(myself included) we just like to kill and loot and maybe talk to (harass) some NPCs, build a stronghold etc. We are refreshingly shallow.

I would say that, from the reader's point of view, Conan is involved in episodic play. Likewise any literary protagonist whose exploits take place in discreet episodes. IMHO, this is the ideal playstyle for DCC RPG, as I believe that the RAW are strongly written for that direction.

However, some are not interested in playing Conan from the reader's point of view; they prefer to play Conan from Conan's point of view. From this point of view, what constitutes a discrete episode isn't known until later reflection makes it so. Creating such an experience requires a persistent campaign milieu.

These days, "campaign" is often used to denote a linear series of adventures which comprise a set "storyline", such as the Paizo Adventure Paths. Among older gamers, "campaign" meant the persistent milieu, and what took place within that milieu.

If you wanted to use the older campaign model with DCC, I would recommend a setting area (again, a large exotic city and sprawling complex beneath would be ideal for allowing many events and interactions), with opportunities for episodic play (specific opportunities, problems, and quests) arising from time to time. I think that the game would do this quite well.


RC

I agree on having a cool sandbox for the DM with little time. This game did just come out though. Given some time Goodman Games and all of the 3PPs will have a boatload of stuff for such DMs. I want to start a campaign system from scratch including gods and what not. I may start a thread on fellow DM's advice on how to create a world.

[reverenddak]

The Isle of the Unknown is a pretty good example of sandbox with totally unique creatures and no D&D tropes. It's also an extremely beautiful book. I plan to send my group there eventually.

General tips on running sandboxes are always welcome.

[Raven_Crowking]

I always appreciate your critiques, Raven. They are well reasoned, and best of all, constructive.

Thanks.

Like I said, going through the core book, I can see how many of my concerns from the Beta were addressed. That's a great thing.

Due to the forums, I've got a spell and patron template; I recommend something like that be officially available on the Goodman Games website as well. I would also recommend a short doc on "Balance and Rebalance" because, in actual play, there shouldn't be a problem with having some patrons be better than others, etc., but years of WotC-D&D are going to create a different idea among many gamers.

Again, it is in Goodman Games' interest to show what a mini-sandbox for DCC looks like, because the mini-sandbox is the model on which larger sandbox games are built.

I see your point. Doom of the Savage Kings is a step (but only a step) in this direction. I'm interested in reading your take on it ... not because it's the perfect answer to your question, but because I think it will spur some conversation in the right direction.

//H

Twisting the knife 'cause I'm still waiting, eh?

My concern is with trying to parse things that may help the game grow far and fast! And a lot of that is identifying the things that get in the way, and helping folks get past them. "Answer the opposition" is how I was taught to engage in a debate (meaning, understand the other point of view, anticipate what objections will arise, and ideally answer them before they do). If I can, I want to help Goodman Games answer the objection here.

Besides, if 3.x taught us nothing else, it was that expecting the GM to do the work of 20 for the reward of 1/2 is a fool's gamble. If 4.x taught us nothing else, it was that all of the action in the world matters naught if it is meaningless. The tools in the core rulebook actually reduce the workload a lot (DCC is like Stars Without Number in that way!), but these were not all in the Beta, and you want people to know that you both understand those concerns and have addressed them.

I've said it before; there's a lot of stuff in here which is liberating to creativity. You need to help people "get" that....and by people, I mean the ones who aren't already convinced!

And, as I mentioned in an email, this is the first game in a long time where I've felt a great desire to own every module and 3pp.....everything about it is cool and inspirational!



RC

[goodmangames]

By the way -- forgot to mention this earlier -- I do agree with the comment that the line of modules should include examples of some of the quests. The first to provide this example will be DCC #74: Blades Against Death, in which the characters try to rescue a fallen comrade from the clutches of Death himself. Following that one, I think a good example of magic item creation would be appropriate. Do you guys have other suggestions for adventure themes / ideas you'd like to see examples of?

[Karaptis]

By the way -- forgot to mention this earlier -- I do agree with the comment that the line of modules should include examples of some of the quests. The first to provide this example will be DCC #74: Blades Against Death, in which the characters try to rescue a fallen comrade from the clutches of Death himself. Following that one, I think a good example of magic item creation would be appropriate. Do you guys have other suggestions for adventure themes / ideas you'd like to see examples of?

Started a thread under DCC RPG General.

[ragboy]

By the way -- forgot to mention this earlier -- I do agree with the comment that the line of modules should include examples of some of the quests. The first to provide this example will be DCC #74: Blades Against Death, in which the characters try to rescue a fallen comrade from the clutches of Death himself. Following that one, I think a good example of magic item creation would be appropriate. Do you guys have other suggestions for adventure themes / ideas you'd like to see examples of?

Suggestion -- I ran Burning Plague (first 3.0 WotC web-published adventure, I believe) as the "quest to heal the sick" (number 6 on the deity disapproval chart) for an unlucky cleric.

Overall, I'd like to see adventures that are:

- Adventures with character specific hooks (like the quest to heal the sick, above, or a magical component for a spell or a new Mighty Deed to learn or something) but that obviously have lots of twists and turns -- and don't shirk the demi-humans! I'd love to see a halfling-centric adventure...don't know if I've seen that done well.
- High action situations -- I like dungeon crawls, but what about an adventure based entirely around a city-spanning race or a clash of ships, or a running battle. (Eberron and Savage Worlds did this well)
- Otherworldy/otherplanar/other dimension -- Weird stuff -- where even the few things the characters can do don't work as expected, or at least parts of a "normal" adventure that plays with these concepts -- maybe a series where the ultimate "quest" is to get back to where you came from. -- Planescape being another favorite setting that I think did a good job with this.
- Investigative -- These have always been popular with my players, but I don't know anyone else's experience.
- Freeform/sandbox? - don't know how this can be done effectively in the few pages you have with a module, but with slight detail, stats, a wilderness map and a handful of "sites," let the DM and players connect the dots.
- On that note -- My dream is a sandbox generator... automated. tweakable. But I guess you guys have enough on your plate to start writing software...

[jmucchiello]

I have a friend who started a 1e AD&D game in 1984. After a while he grafted on the Runequest skill system. While that game was running, he ran an online game (in the mid-90s no less) 500 years in the future using GURPS 3 rules. In 1998, I joined the AD&D1 game and remained with the game through the early 2000s. Finally in 2005 or so, the last of the original players moved away along with a couple other players and he could not run the game any more. So that was a 21 year game where the players went from 1st to around 10-14th level. Around when I joined a player new to gaming joined the game. She started at 1st level and she made it to around 7th level by the time she moved away. (I joined at 10th level and ended at 12th). This game was basically monthly when I played until it fell to seasonally in the last year.

With a different group of players, we played D&D3 from 1st to 33rd level 4 hours a week, every week (using 3 DMs coordinating thing loosely at first and tightly at the end) for 4 years.

Based on my reading of RPG forums, long term campaigning has less to do with the game system and more to do with player commitment and group stability.

[Raven_Crowking]

Based on my reading of RPG forums, long term campaigning has less to do with the game system and more to do with player commitment and group stability.

Do you think that those things have nothing to do with the system used?

Anecdotally, I played 1e continuously from about 1980 to the release of 2e, when I foolishly traded in my books. Eventually, I stopped running 2e because it became work.

I started running 3e with its release, but stopped because, esp. as characters levelled, it became work. The system was just not fun to run. This was especially true due to the long times required to resolve combats, which the designers of 4e identified as a real problem early on, and then decided to make worse for some unfathomable reason.

All of these years later, though, 1e is still fun to run. There is probably a reason why one game lasted 21 years, despite players diverging through time, while the other lasted 4, despite all players being strongly committed. System matters.

DCC is fun to run. That's important.

Now we need to identify where it is the most work, and make it easy to run as well. There is a reason that people have already been calling for a book of patrons, and a book of spells. Third party publishers, take note!

If a game is not fun to run, it matters little how many players are committed to play in it, or how much time they are willing to commit. Somebody has to want to be the Game Master. And, if the Game Master is willing, but not enthused, the game tends to suck. IME.

RC

[Karaptis]

I think this game will get some support for sure and thus keep it alive and well for DMs out there who don't want to make it a job. We're just at the beginning which is so exciting to see and be part of. Even when I found DnD in the 80s it wasnt this exciting.

[reverenddak]

I love this game. I haven't' been this excited and motivated to play a game since, I can't even remember. I've been playing with game with a little sandbox (Loviatar) made for Basic D&D, and a bunch of OSR adventures written for everything from LL, S&W and LotFP. Whatever type of gaming, from running pre-made modules to pure sandbox, DCC RPG really supports and encourages it. Whatever complaints about "long-term" play I've read have not been a concern in my campaign that I've been running for almost a year now.

So, yeah. I see DCC RPG as my Core Rules for a long long time. It's just perfect.

[smathis]

To answer the OP, I think DCC will be fine for long-term play.

To answer Joseph's question about long term play in previous editions of D&D...

Basic D&D...5th level
AD&D 1e... 9th or 10th level
AD&D 2e... Didn't play as much. Stayed with AD&D 1e.
3e D&D... 12th level or thereabouts
4e D&D... 11th level

I've also been in groups that have played WEG Star Wars for a long period of time. As well as FASERIP Marvel. And a post-apocalyptic game called Aftermath. Oh, and 2nd edition Gamma World. And Call of Cthulhu. Played the heck out of that too.

IME, long term play is more about how the DM/Judge/GM sets up the campaign to play. And I think Raven is right in that it's a lot easier for a GM/DM to follow a template of sorts when doing so for their own group.

I mean, how much did "Keep on the Borderlands" do to promote long-term play for Basic D&D? We played that thing for MONTHS my first time around.

In a bid for shameless self-promotion, I've seen this issue crop up with TA/TG as well. It's sort of like a "what now?" moment that permeates almost every "episodic" campaign I've run or played in. I think episodic campaigns can work long-term and I would note that my earliest play experiences with D&D were ALL episodic. And we got up to some high levels too. But it's also a different play experience that, without some unifying threat or purpose, can get tiresome over the long haul (IME).

Which leads me to TA/TG. So I finish up these playtests. And people have fun. And they want to know "what comes next" because they want to play again and want to know what happens with their characters. And, in regards to TA/TG, I got nothing. It's a good problem to have, IMO. But long term it's a death knell for TA/TG. For the moment.

What I've been driven to with TA/TG is formulating tools to promote emergent play between adventures. "What's next" is defined by where the players are at the end of their last adventure and what happens to them on their way to the next one. There's also some work to be done fleshing out the player's view of the world such that they can participate in the regional power struggles. They have to have a way to put skin in the game and also be dragged kicking and screaming into it.

I think DCC provides the bones for the latter... with Militant Orders, Thief Guilds, Patrons and Gods.

For the former... Well, that's something that could appear in the DCC Annual or a supplement down the road.

Maybe DCC would benefit from similar tools to what's appearing in TA/TG. And those certainly aren't married to the Transylvanian setting. So who knows? Maybe each game wins because I'm tired of seeing the puppy dog eyes when the last vampire gets staked.

[Tortog]

I think DCC is just fine for long term play. It required some adjustments for my setting, but nothing major. We found that the number of critters needed to challenge the wizard would have overwhelmed the rest of the party, so I have enacted some tweaks to tone down the magic a bit for long term play. Primarily in making casting time equal to the level of the spell in rounds. Let the wizard have the uber-powerful spells, but make them have to rely upon the rest of the party for protection long enough to successfully cast the spell. I'm still working on how this will affect the spell duels... Truth be told, I'm not that fond of this sub-set of the rules and am happy that my players aren't that interested either.

The other thing I found was that for long term play the fixed DC's of 5,10, 15, &20 needed to be adjusted down to; no roll unless there are dire consequences from failure, 8, 12, & 16. This left me 'wiggle room' in DC mechanics in the story telling for truly heroic and heinous actions 17+.

I just finished reading DCC #66.5, and I could easily turn that into a long term campaign, just by giving the party a reason to be traveling the King's Highway: and then let them layer in their own sets of goals for their characters. When all of a sudden... {cue the dramatic music} Fate throws you something interesting to deal with. If the players survive the twist of Fate's dagger, then they can carry out their former goal(s), if not their failure might have repercussions for the next gaggle of characters they play.
***

The longest campaign I ran was a 2nd ed romp through my home-brewed world. We met every week (most of the time) for nearly a year and a half. It had 10 players originally; but lost 2 as they went off to college, and one to missionary service. It covered 8 years of the characters lives, taking them from 2nd level all the way to God-hood for 3 of the players. It had lots of world shaking events, like the fact that one of the characters made a mistake that ended up killing the entire race of wood-elves... leaving him as the very last wood-elf.
***

IME, long term play is more about how the DM/Judge/GM sets up the campaign to play. And I think Raven is right in that it's a lot easier for a GM/DM to follow a template of sorts when doing so for their own group.

+d30

This is the same mode of thought I am putting forward with Critters, Creatures, & Denizens.
Spiders are spiders, and
a snake is a snake...
if you need something unique:
mutate, mutate, mutate!!!

There is nothing shameful about self promotion

[jmucchiello]

Based on my reading of RPG forums, long term campaigning has less to do with the game system and more to do with player commitment and group stability.

Do you think that those things have nothing to do with the system used?

No, I just think the system is a way less important part than you do (probably by several orders of magnitude). IME, a good GM can take a crappy ruleset and a crappy adventure and turn it into a pleasant-to-fantastic evening of gaming. A bad GM can take an amazing/incredible ruleset and an adventure written by a deity and turn it into a boring-to-awful evening of gaming. By extension, consistently good gaming sessions leads to group stability and player commitment.

IOW, the GM's influence over how the players receive the game is head and shoulders above the ruleset as written and the adventure as written. And how the players receive the game determines their commitment and stability.

Feel free to disagree or agree but say there is less of a gap than I'm saying. But that is what I think and the first rule of good gaming is having a good GM. (How one determines a GM is "good"? That's an entirely different problem. )

[Raven_Crowking]

Based on my reading of RPG forums, long term campaigning has less to do with the game system and more to do with player commitment and group stability.

Do you think that those things have nothing to do with the system used?

No, I just think the system is a way less important part than you do (probably by several orders of magnitude). IME, a good GM can take a crappy ruleset and a crappy adventure and turn it into a pleasant-to-fantastic evening of gaming. A bad GM can take an amazing/incredible ruleset and an adventure written by a deity and turn it into a boring-to-awful evening of gaming.

See, I don't disagree with that. But, I think that, given those same GMs, the first will do even better with good rules, and the second will do even worse with poor rules. Moreover, it isn't just the rules, but the presentation of the rules, and how that presentation guides the GM to prepare for a game, and to run that game.

(I would also say that, depending upon the strengths and weaknesses of a particular GM, the best system for that GM is going to vary.)

I am happy to agree that "the first rule of good gaming is having a good GM", but that doesn't prevent me from wanting to offer the tools to help make a mediocre GM good, a good GM great, and a crappy GM a little less crappy.


RC

[jmucchiello]

What I've been driven to with TA/TG is formulating tools to promote emergent play between adventures. "What's next" is defined by where the players are at the end of their last adventure and what happens to them on their way to the next one. There's also some work to be done fleshing out the player's view of the world such that they can participate in the regional power struggles. They have to have a way to put skin in the game and also be dragged kicking and screaming into it.

I think even episodic play can have long term elements. Just because you have BBEG setup in the campaign doesn't mean the players (initially) know about him or even work against him. You can have a series of episodic adventures with clues to a bigger story as long as you don't force the players to find those clues. Consider a TV show like Babylon 5. The first session had a mix of one-off shows and shows that pointed toward a deeper story (arc show). It wasn't until the later seasons that almost every episode progressed the greater story.

The real "problem" here is motivation. DCC PCs are not Heroes. So they aren't expected to stop the BBEG. Heck, let them work both for and against him unknowingly several times before they realize he exists. (Heck, I like to do that to Heroes all the time. Yes, Mr. Paladin, you were hired by dark forces to acquire the Artifact of Goodness so they could sacrifice it to a dark god. No alignment shift but you do get a healthy dose of soul searching. Enjoy.) Then they can choose sides or go their own way.

[jmucchiello]

I am happy to agree that "the first rule of good gaming is having a good GM", but that doesn't prevent me from wanting to offer the tools to help make a mediocre GM good, a good GM great, and a crappy GM a little less crappy.

I'm going to nitpick this. A good ruleset can lift up the average GM. But it won't do diddly for the mediocre (or worse) GM. The only cure for bad GMing is practice with honest player feedback and the GM having an open mind about constructive criticism. Remember, I said above a bad GM can take a good ruleset and create a boring play session. That goes back to my statement that we disagree upon the influence the ruleset can have compared to the influence of the GM.

fun = m (GM^9) + n (players^7) + o (ruleset^3) - p (players' non-participating SOs^6) + q (environment^5) + ...

(Joe's Quantitative Theory of Fun, you've heard it here first.)

[Raven_Crowking]

I am happy to agree that "the first rule of good gaming is having a good GM", but that doesn't prevent me from wanting to offer the tools to help make a mediocre GM good, a good GM great, and a crappy GM a little less crappy.

I'm going to nitpick this. A good ruleset can lift up the average GM. But it won't do diddly for the mediocre (or worse) GM. The only cure for bad GMing is practice with honest player feedback and the GM having an open mind about constructive criticism. Remember, I said above a bad GM can take a good ruleset and create a boring play session. That goes back to my statement that we disagree upon the influence the ruleset can have compared to the influence of the GM.

fun = m (GM^9) + n (players^7) + o (ruleset^3) - p (players' non-participating SOs^6) + q (environment^5) + ...

(Joe's Quantitative Theory of Fun, you've heard it here first.)

Depends upon why the GM's crappy in the first place.

Not prepared? A good ruleset can help with that.
Don't know what to do? A good ruleset can help with that.
An asshole? No ruleset in the world (apart from the Golden Rule-set) can help with that.

I am sure that, the first time I picked up Holmes Basic to run a game, I was not already a good GM. Yet, I do believe that the Holmes rules helped me to become one. Likewise, I think that games like Stars Without Numbers and Dungeon Crawl Classics, which identify likely problems and address them, help to make better GMs.

Reading and considering Gary's advice in the 1e DMG made me a better DM. Following the advice in the 2e DMG made me worse. The advice in the DCC core rulebook is definitely in the "reading and considering makes me better" camp. I disregarded a lot of WotC advice that would have made me worse.

I like to give credit where credit is due. The early influences in my RPG career shaped my outlook on the game. If they did not "make" me a good GM, they sure as hell helped!


RC

[reverenddak]

A good ruleset can lift up the average GM. But it won't do diddly for the mediocre (or worse) GM. The only cure for bad GMing is practice with honest player feedback and the GM having an open mind about constructive criticism. Remember, I said above a bad GM can take a good ruleset and create a boring play session. That goes back to my statement that we disagree upon the influence the ruleset can have compared to the influence of the GM.)

An amazing rule-set that doesn't fit the GM style can make any GM look like he sucks. I think Raven_Crowking's main concern are for tools to make everything easier or better for any GM that supports Long term play. Vornheim is a good example of a tool for running City adventures or even campaigns. It called a "City Kit" for those reasons. Maybe Long-term play, means campaign play. Because long-term episodic play can had by having a string of unrelated one-shots. My DCC RPG campaign is a mix of one-shot mods and a couple arcs that I've dropped hooks for. Only some of these hooks have been snagged by my group, but it happens. But I rely on pre-made adventures because I don't have the time, or talent, to write adventures. But I know I'm a good DM, and I know I can handle it when players "derail". And a good set of rules & tools can help support a more free-flowing, pseudo sandbox. 4e can't handle it.

[smathis]

What I've been driven to with TA/TG is formulating tools to promote emergent play between adventures. "What's next" is defined by where the players are at the end of their last adventure and what happens to them on their way to the next one. There's also some work to be done fleshing out the player's view of the world such that they can participate in the regional power struggles. They have to have a way to put skin in the game and also be dragged kicking and screaming into it.

I think even episodic play can have long term elements. Just because you have BBEG setup in the campaign doesn't mean the players (initially) know about him or even work against him. You can have a series of episodic adventures with clues to a bigger story as long as you don't force the players to find those clues. Consider a TV show like Babylon 5. The first session had a mix of one-off shows and shows that pointed toward a deeper story (arc show). It wasn't until the later seasons that almost every episode progressed the greater story.

The real "problem" here is motivation. DCC PCs are not Heroes. So they aren't expected to stop the BBEG. Heck, let them work both for and against him unknowingly several times before they realize he exists. (Heck, I like to do that to Heroes all the time. Yes, Mr. Paladin, you were hired by dark forces to acquire the Artifact of Goodness so they could sacrifice it to a dark god. No alignment shift but you do get a healthy dose of soul searching. Enjoy.) Then they can choose sides or go their own way.

Howdy j. I agree on episodic play having long term elements. It's one of the things I think a long term episodic campaign can benefit from -- be it a BBEG, story arc or over-arcing quest.

In this regard, TA/TG is easier to mold towards an episodic campaign. Because there are several BBEG's to choose from. And there are several different story arcs that can be mixed, matched or ignored as the case may be. But that's down the road. Right now, it's very much in the mold of a game in active playtest. Hence the same issue I had with DCC playtesting and TA/TG playtesting -- that "What Now" moment.

To a lesser degree TA/TG characters have that, "You're No Hero" element and can take it or leave it as well.

And that's where the "in between" adventures stuff comes into play. Anyone familiar with jrients' tables for what happens "Back at Town" has a good idea already about where I'm headed. Only the tables will be a little less goofy and there will be more options and more varieties of tables. This is also where a party's adversaries can take a cheap shot at them and where the party can learn more about who wants them dead and why.

In TA/TG, the party can have a BBEG, a cult or even a Patron(ish) thing that wants them dead. And the more successful they are at killing monsters, the more the monsters want them eliminated. So things can morph and change over time. The party might also find themselves in conflict with another sect of "good guys". Think of how Vampire Hunter D runs afoul of the Markus Brothers. Or how things get shaken up when the Pegasus shows up in BSG.

The idea is that we can capture some of that on some random tables to help DMs with emergent play that can help them and the group define the direction of play. The "What do we do now?" moment.

When the dust has settled, I think those TA/TG tables would be really useful for DCC. Because the "we're Reavers" meme gives DCC characters greater latitude to tell Thulsa Doom to go off himself and head back to Zamoria. I feel they're pretty necessary for TA/TG too. For when a DM has a dry spell and wants some help figuring out what's next as well.

And the inspiration for these tables came from using jrients' Back in Town tables in a C&C game and having the realization that we'd spent easily one-half of a session resolving complications that arose from those tables and that, in fact, doing just that was way more fun than what I'd planned on us doing anyway.

I don't necessarily think emergent play is a panacea. But it definitely helps to have more options in that area, IMO, than less options. Especially when it comes to episodic play.

[RevTurkey]

Hold the phone!

Stars Without Numbers...

I just checked this out. Never heard of it before. Bloody hell, it is captain awesome, sat in an awesome chair on the starship awesome, parked in the spaceport of awesome town on awesome world in the...wait for it...awesome quadrant of the.....etc etc.

In short, I like this very much. Finally D&D in spaaaaace!

Thankyou RK for putting me on to this. Excellent and free

I may have to sell a few things to fund a hardcopy.

[smathis]

An amazing rule-set that doesn't fit the GM style can make any GM look like he sucks. I think Raven_Crowking's main concern are for tools to make everything easier or better for any GM that supports Long term play. Vornheim is a good example of a tool for running City adventures or even campaigns. It called a "City Kit" for those reasons. Maybe Long-term play, means campaign play. Because long-term episodic play can had by having a string of unrelated one-shots. My DCC RPG campaign is a mix of one-shot mods and a couple arcs that I've dropped hooks for. Only some of these hooks have been snagged by my group, but it happens. But I rely on pre-made adventures because I don't have the time, or talent, to write adventures. But I know I'm a good DM, and I know I can handle it when players "derail". And a good set of rules & tools can help support a more free-flowing, pseudo sandbox. 4e can't handle it.

Vornheim is a great example of the emergent play tools I'm talking about. If you translate Transylvanian Adventures into a Vornheim for Hammer Horror with a sandbox style hexmap, you've nailed the campaign/setting section. I've used Vornheim as inspiration/reference almost as much I've used DCC. I would highly recommend people pick up Vornheim. There's stuff in there all over the place that can be used for DCC or TA/TG. That guy is just a straight up mad scientist genius person.

But TA/TG will have the same spirit with its tools/charts for emergent play. TA/TG has a terrifyingly huge set of NPC charts larger than Vornheim, even. Random encounters that are more than X monsters show up and fight! And 'Back in Town' kinds of tables that should spice things up considerably. The rules for Research held up extremely well during playtest. Surprisingly so, in fact. And give TA/TG a flavor similar to the original Castle Ravenloft adventure.

Best of all, every single one of these tools can be used outside of Transylvania with, maybe, the Random Encounters as a lone exception.

End shameless self-promotion.

In short, I ran up against a lot of the concerns with long-term episodic play. And I'm offering charts and options to help alleviate some of them in TA/TG. But I don't think those problems are unique to DCC. I think it's just an issue with any campaign that takes an episodic approach but lacks the over-arcing elements to tie the episodes together. Overarcing elements + Emergent Play + Cleavage Rule = Long Term Awesome.

[reverenddak]

Depends upon why the GM's crappy in the first place.

Not prepared? A good ruleset can help with that.
Don't know what to do? A good ruleset can help with that.
An asshole? No ruleset in the world (apart from the Golden Rule-set) can help with that.

I totally agree with this. But add in the "style" of game vs GM "style". I've never been very good with narrative-improve heavy Story-games.

Reading and considering Gary's advice in the 1e DMG made me a better DM. Following the advice in the 2e DMG made me worse. The advice in the DCC core rulebook is definitely in the "reading and considering makes me better" camp. I disregarded a lot of WotC advice that would have made me worse.

There is something to this. The guy who writes some of the GM tips type stuff for WotC, both 3e & 4e, has always been Robin Laws, who I think writes some of the best tips, ever, on GM-ing. And you can tell his stuff, he focuses on narratives, player style, and pacing. The DMG2 for 4e was pretty good. The DMG2 for 3e was also pretty good. But they were almost out-of-place because the way the games ACTUALLY played. Mind you that I played a lot of "organized" RPGA stuff from 2000 to 2010, so playing a strict, by-the-book, type game was required and it affected my "homegame".

DCC RPG fits my style as a Judge because it really emphasizes randomness and Judge's fiat instead of thoroughly comprehensive all-encompassing rules.

[reverenddak]

Vornheim is a great example of the emergent play tools I'm talking about. If you translate Transylvanian Adventures into a Vornheim for Hammer Horror with a sandbox style hexmap, you've nailed the campaign/setting section. I've used Vornheim as inspiration/reference almost as much I've used DCC. I would highly recommend people pick up Vornheim. There's stuff in there all over the place that can be used for DCC or TA/TG. That guy is just a straight up mad scientist genius person.

But TA/TG will have the same spirit with its tools/charts for emergent play. TA/TG has a terrifyingly huge set of NPC charts larger than Vornheim, even. Random encounters that are more than X monsters show up and fight! And 'Back in Town' kinds of tables that should spice things up considerably. The rules for Research held up extremely well during playtest. Surprisingly so, in fact. And give TA/TG a flavor similar to the original Castle Ravenloft adventure.

In short, I ran up against a lot of the concerns with long-term episodic play. And I'm offering charts and options to help alleviate some of them in TA/TG. But I don't think those problems are unique to DCC. I think it's just an issue with any campaign that takes an episodic approach but lacks the over-arcing elements to tie the episodes together. Overarcing elements + Emergent Play + Cleavage Rule = Long Term Awesome.

Vornheim IS amazing. I've met the guy, he's exactly the same in person, one on one, as he is on youtube and his blog. He's a trip.

Emergent Play, that's a term I haven't' heard before this thread. I like it and it makes sense. These are the kind of tools I could use in any kind of game I play. I personally think these are exactly the right kind of tools a GM needs to help when pre-made mods get "derailed".

[Raven_Crowking]

I think we actually agree more than disagree.

When I am thinking of a long-term game, I am not thinking just of a game that lasts for a lot of episodes. I am thinking of a game where, specifically, goals are player-driven as much as they are GM-driven. And I do not mean simply questing to undo things that have been done to you over the course of a game, or seeking out wood from a dryad's tree because the GM pointed you that way.

I want the players to be able to look at the setting, and then set goals for their characters on that basis. When plot hooks arrive, I want the players to be able to sift through them and decide what to follow up on, and what to ignore, and then deal with the consequences of both.

My vision of a long-term play model is as player-driven as it is GM-driven. I have little interest in a game that cannot do this well....and I have gone to great lengths to define what a system needs to do this well. Based on the Beta and my initial perusal of the Core Book, I was concerned that this might be a problem. I am not concerned about this any more....but I do think that tools helping to make this easier would be of value. I have pretty well outlined what I think those tools should be. (I failed to say, earlier, that a set of stats for mundane creatures like lions and tigers and bears, oh my, would be of real value....but largely because I know such a project is already being worked on.)

Goodman Games, or any 3pp that wants to run with these ideas, should do so.


RC


P.S.: RevTurkey, it is entirely my delight to point out the wonderful SWN to anyone, as it is to point others to DCC.