Two questions regarding deeds of arms

[drnate29]

That's a fair point regarding degree of success. It sounds like it would be within the listed rules to say that a "just made it" MD to disarm the Captain of the Guard might instead nick him in the wrist and give a -2 to his next attack.

I don't have a problem with players having their moment in the sun, but it seems like fighters/dwarves might a get a lot more of those than other classes based on how often they would swing a weapon versus spellcasting (which has Spellburn and Corruption risks). Likwise, I really hate walkover combats both as a player and as a DM. Might just be a thing for my gaming table but I like the challenge level for the PC's to be fairly high. Aside from MD's it seems like DCC does a great job of supplying such an atmosphere.

[Ravenheart87]

MD's were my biggest balance concern after looking through the book. It seems like MD's would happen quite a bit by about 4th Lv

Which is quite hard to reach.

and would lead to a lot of walk-overs by the party and the feeling that Fighters and Dwarves are a lot more powerful than other classes.

Monsters and other classes get cool stuff too, that make them easier to kill fighters.

I think most creative players could come up with ways that a successful MD would nearly eliminate a foe (e.g. blind, chop off limb, etc.).

There's a difference between creative and munchkin. It's the Judge's job how he handles the rules and how strong he let's MDs to be.

One thought I'd have to to say MD's occur on Natural 20's,

That's quite rare, plus there are already criticals for nat 20s for everyone.

and a priori create a list for each character of roughly 6 things the MD would do. Then its a d6 roll to find out. The list of possible MD results could be based on the PC or the weapon used.

This takes away the most fun part of combat and MDs: the player's decision.

[bholmes4]

I played that the Deed die could be used for extra damage OR for a deed but not both. Thus most of the time the players simply choose to use the die for the extra damage, but at key strategic moments would try to pull off stunts. With crits and fumbles already flying off here and there combat still felt cinematic and the players liked it. I like that each round they faced interesting decisions on what to do with their deed die.

The problem is I don't think this will work at high levels. It's one thing to lose out on an extra d3 or d4 damage, it's another to lose out on d10. I can see players choosing to attempt deeds less and less frequently as they level up, which is the opposite of what I want.

[reverenddak]

I've been playing with MDoA rules, as written, for over a year now and they've never felt overpowered. They actually hit a sweet spot. But I also don't compare power-levels between different games. Imagine a 1st-level Wizard in 4e vs one in 3e vs one in Original Edition. They're different games, and power levels work differently. Warriors are supposed to stomp through combat, in combat. But there is more to DCC RPG than poking out eyeballs and cutting off hands. Wizards for example. A 1st-level Wizard can potentially cast 6 magic missiles that do 7 points of damage each. That's a 1st level character doing 42 points of damage! A thief can backstab with a garrote and do up to 24 points of damage, or even immediately knock a character out (Save vs Fort.)

Your concern is about the potential, but the potential is a double edged sword, because the worst could also happen.

DCC RPG is all about a wider and more dynamic range of "effects", and those effects can be a lot more or less than the boring standard of 1d6 points of damage.

[Vandendanderclanden]

I love mighty deeds. Are they overpowered? Well, I dunno. In last nights session, I had a 2nd level wizard spellburn 17 points on a magic missile and deliver like 74 points of damage to a super baddy to avoid TPK. Yeah it came at a cost, but is some little MD going to do that? I think the interesting thing about DCC is that low level characters are total asskickers, no matter what class they are. And it's a proven fact that players prefer to be asskickers. Let 'em have it. But what the hell, I'm going to throw a lich at a party of 2nd level characters and not feel guilty about it.

[gandalf_scion]

Might be a good idea (?) to limit the number of Mighty Deeds one can attempt per turn (10 minutes) to a character's level. For example, a 3rd level warrior could do 3 deeds per turn. That would prevent round after round of melo drama. You do need some mundane rounds in there to give the MDs prominence.

[GnomeBoy]

Might be a good idea (?) to limit the number of Mighty Deeds one can attempt per turn (10 minutes) to a character's level. For example, a 3rd level warrior could do 3 deeds per turn. That would prevent round after round of melo drama. You do need some mundane rounds in there to give the MDs prominence.

Does this count include attempts that fail, or just successes on MDOAs?

I dunno, the mechanic has been play tested fairly widely for what could be measured in years (at least two, if my understanding is right). And the complaints are most often of the "I read it, and it seems wrong" variety.

[gandalf_scion]

Some ideas for weapon-specific Might Deeds...

In addition to those deeds appearing on page DCC RPG page 92, allow the following weapons the indicated capabilities on a successful Mighty Deed of Arms (MDA).

Flail: A warrior with a flail can choose one of two options before making his roll: 1) allow the warrior to make his deed die roll BEFORE his attack roll. If the deed die roll succeeds, then ignore any bonus to AC the target may have received for a shield when making that attack roll and inflict damage normally or 2) the attacking warrior disarms his opponent on a successful MDA.

Long Sword: Account for a long sword’s renowned balance by allowing a warrior who succeeds in his MDA to do his usual damage and add +1 to his own AC against the next attack directed at him. He recovers from his own attack in time to parry an incoming blow.

Long Bow: Represent the long bow’s exceptional armor piercing ability by allowing the warrior to make his deed die roll BEFORE his attack roll. If the deed die roll succeeds, then the target’s AC bonus due to armor is reduced to one-half the usual value for the coming attack, i.e. leather usually +2 is only +1, scale mail usually +4 is only +2, chain mail usually +5 is only +3 etc.

Mace: By crumpling an opponent’s metal armor, each MDA inflicts the usual damage and lowers the targets AC by one point if and only if the target is wearing metal armor – scale mail, chain mail, banded mail, half plate or full plate. Crumpled armor can be returned to normal after one full day of work by a smith with a complete smithy.

Polearm: A warrior with a polearm can freely to chose to use weapon specific deeds for either battle axe or spear.

Spear: Account for a spear’s ability to puncture non-metal armor by allowing the warrior to make his deed die roll BEFORE his attack roll. If the deed die roll succeeds, then the target’s AC bonus due to non-metal armor, padded, leather, or hide, is reduced to one-half the usual value for the coming attack, i.e. hide usually +3 is only +2. For this rule, studded leather is armored.

Staff: Simulate a staff’s potential swiftness by allowing a warrior with a successful MDA to immediately make one additional attack against the same target. Allow only one such extra attack per round even if the warrior succeeds at the MDA on his extra attack.

[Blustar]

Performing a Mighty Deed every round just sounded silly and felt silly, so we house ruled if you announce a Deed you always get the "to-hit" effect of the deed die but if you fail, you don't get the damage bonus from the deed die. It's a little bit of a penalty and there's at least some penalty for failure. Sometimes a point or 2 of damage means the monster fights one more round which could make a big difference.

At higher level where the deed die is much greater, you could probably state that you get only half damage from your deed die if you fail. We just want a consequence for failure.

[meinvt]

I'm fascinated to note that various elements of the game that groups are house ruling because it doesn't "feel right". Personally I find it entirely appropriate and thematic that at any given time, in addition to attempting to wound your opponent you are also trying to disarm, or trip, or push them back, or feint, or any of a number of other things the deed die represents. I think the fact that you can always attempt to do something cool - without penalty - is part of the genius of the warrior class. Of course, you don't actually perform the deed unless your deed die result comes up high enough, so one every three rounds for a level 1 warrior.

[Rick]

I'm fascinated to note that various elements of the game that groups are house ruling because it doesn't "feel right". Personally I find it entirely appropriate and thematic that at any given time, in addition to attempting to wound your opponent you are also trying to disarm, or trip, or push them back, or feint, or any of a number of other things the deed die represents. I think the fact that you can always attempt to do something cool - without penalty - is part of the genius of the warrior class.

I agree.

Of course, you don't actually perform the deed unless your deed die result comes up high enough, so one every three rounds for a level 1 warrior.

And it can be well less than that when you factor in failing to hit w/ the Action die / d20.

Example Level 1 Warrior is attempting a Deed vs. her Example foe (AC 14). Using the Wizards D&D Dice Roller,

Roll(10d20)+0:
8,7,19,2,8,20,16,8,15,18

Roll(10d3):
2,1,2,3,1,2,1,3,1,3

Or, putting it together (d20/d3, hit/miss), 8/2, 7/1, 19/2, 2/3, 8/1, 20/2, 16/1, 8/3, 15/1, 18/3

She successfully strikes her opponent 50% of the time (incl. a crit) but only pulls off one successful use of a Mighty Deed out of 10 tries.

[bholmes4]

I think there are three main reasons people want to houserule the Deeds die:

1. To speed the game up.
2. The concern that at higher levels warriors will be constantly pulling off deeds, especially with multi-actions per round.
3. Low element of risk to the stunts which takes some of the tension away from them.

Personally I don't see a problem at low levels since they are so difficult to pull off anyway. At the higher levels I do have some concerns though

[Bilgewriggler]

Another two-edged sword aspect to consider is the impact of MDOA on target choice by NPCs. If the Warrior chops one orc's hand off on round one, and another orc's hand on round two, don't you think the rest of the orcs will concentrate their efforts on him in round three -- especially the ones in the back with crossbows? Suddenly the Warrior is soaking up a lot of damage, and the cleric just got more important.

[TheNobleDrake]

Another two-edged sword aspect to consider is the impact of MDOA on target choice by NPCs. If the Warrior chops one orc's hand off on round one, and another orc's hand on round two, don't you think the rest of the orcs will concentrate their efforts on him in round three -- especially the ones in the back with crossbows? Suddenly the Warrior is soaking up a lot of damage, and the cleric just got more important.

Yes - that is exactly why I refuse to limit warriors from performing Deeds in my games, and refuse to give Deeds to any other classes as well. It encourages the intelligent monsters/NPCs encountered in battle to "force" the party to work as a team - which I will never count as anything but the best of situation.

Deeds let the Warrior and his "wall of AC and HP" step up and protect his fellows by seeming worth the attention to the enemy - even while they have spells raining down on them from wizards, backstabs jabbing their way from the thieves, and the raw power of gods channeled through the cleric to their overall detriment.

No longer do I feel like the bad guys are attacking the party's warrior type just because he is "in the way."

[Blustar]

I'm fascinated to note that various elements of the game that groups are house ruling because it doesn't "feel right". Personally I find it entirely appropriate and thematic that at any given time, in addition to attempting to wound your opponent you are also trying to disarm, or trip, or push them back, or feint, or any of a number of other things the deed die represents. I think the fact that you can always attempt to do something cool - without penalty - is part of the genius of the warrior class. Of course, you don't actually perform the deed unless your deed die result comes up high enough, so one every three rounds for a level 1 warrior.

Perhaps they should've named it, Generic, A Dime a Dozen, Deeds of Arms. Every time you swing your weapon it's a Normal, Everyday, Everytime ( oh I mean Mighty Deed) of Arms!

I think you guys are actually right in that the warrior is supposed to attempt a deed on every round, look at the Warhammer entry's last sentence ( page 92): " If a warrior with a warhammer does not declare any other Deed, he is automatically considered to attempt a pushback with any successful hit" . It's pretty clear that the warrior is supposed to attempt a Deed every round, mechanically it would be egregious not to attempt one.

I think the wierdness comes with the idea that you have to declare it before you roll. So the PC will feel complelled to do a mighty deed every turn. PC: " I want to stab him in the eye and turn the ground red with the Orc's blood" isn't this what a warrior does every turn he's rolling to attack? Why is this a mighty Deed?

In my mind when I first read it, a mighty deed sounded like something special that a Warrior could pull off when really needed. Spamming mighty deed smells too much like 4th edition to me, like and at-will Flourishing Strike every damn round. I just think it will lose it's special quality.

Anyways, my PC's had fun playing the warrior class and the slight nerf we incorporated seemed to work fine. So it works!

[GnomeBoy]

Given the opportunity, I'd judge that 'spamming' a Deed (doing the same thing with it each round) would make it harder to pull off successfully from, say, the third such attempt, forward. Instead of a 3, you need a 4, then a 5, and so on; the mooks are catching on to your style, and compensating.

But I wouldn't want to penalize someone for being creative with their Deeds. As I see them, they aren't just about hitting harder, and improvising in the moment is not something I'd like to penalize...

Heck, if your mind is blank, just don't do one this round.

[bholmes4]

In my mind when I first read it, a mighty deed sounded like something special that a Warrior could pull off when really needed. Spamming mighty deed smells too much like 4th edition to me, like and at-will Flourishing Strike every damn round. I just think it will lose it's special quality.

This.

I don't have a problem with the damage component, I just want it to be special when a Deed happens. I want it to be a bit of a gamble and provide a moment of tension. Perhaps a simple fix:

Deeds suffer a -2 penalty to hit. If no deed is declared, no penalty.

This makes them a bit riskier and not something you probably want to do each round but not so penalized that they won't be attempted. My only concern is that even a -2 penalty might make it too difficult for low level warriors to pull them off.

[TheNobleDrake]

I want it to be a bit of a gamble and provide a moment of tension.

Is it weird that I share this same feeling, but want it to apply to every attack roll?

The human mind is truly an interesting thing - you see a symptom to a problem where I see its solution.

I apologize if that sounds condescending, I really don't mean for it to but can think of no other way to say what I am trying to say.

[Devil Swine]

I no longer have issues with MD. The issue was always more about the idea of overpowered than issues in game.


I finally came to the conclusion that NONE of the class's are balanced and that every single class is overpowered. I guess it works out because the game play has shown that the game as a whole is deadly and filled with self correcting deathtraps for the players to walk into.

Often abuse leads to remarkable destruction and THAT is entertaining!

[Colin]

Given the opportunity, I'd judge that 'spamming' a Deed (doing the same thing with it each round) would make it harder to pull off successfully from, say, the third such attempt, forward. Instead of a 3, you need a 4, then a 5, and so on; the mooks are catching on to your style, and compensating.

Nice idea! I think I'll take it! *yoink!*

Colin

[Raven_Crowking]

Given the opportunity, I'd judge that 'spamming' a Deed (doing the same thing with it each round) would make it harder to pull off successfully from, say, the third such attempt, forward. Instead of a 3, you need a 4, then a 5, and so on; the mooks are catching on to your style, and compensating.

Nice idea! I think I'll take it! *yoink!*

Colin

+1d

[beermotor]

I no longer have issues with MD. The issue was always more about the idea of overpowered than issues in game.


I finally came to the conclusion that NONE of the class's are balanced and that every single class is overpowered. I guess it works out because the game play has shown that the game as a whole is deadly and filled with self correcting deathtraps for the players to walk into.

Often abuse leads to remarkable destruction and THAT is entertaining!

+1.

I think that's an important point to make. Maybe the best way to keep things moving and not slowed down by constant MDs is to only ask a player to describe them if the MD actually lands. So, miss, who cares. Hit, but no MD, who cares. Hit and score an MD, describe what you just did that's out of the ordinary. (Maybe if they can't actually come up with something interesting really quickly, skip 'em... they'll be better prepared next time.)

[Blustar]

I no longer have issues with MD. The issue was always more about the idea of overpowered than issues in game.


I finally came to the conclusion that NONE of the class's are balanced and that every single class is overpowered. I guess it works out because the game play has shown that the game as a whole is deadly and filled with self correcting deathtraps for the players to walk into.

Often abuse leads to remarkable destruction and THAT is entertaining!

+1.

I think that's an important point to make. Maybe the best way to keep things moving and not slowed down by constant MDs is to only ask a player to describe them if the MD actually lands. So, miss, who cares. Hit, but no MD, who cares. Hit and score an MD, describe what you just did that's out of the ordinary. (Maybe if they can't actually come up with something interesting really quickly, skip 'em... they'll be better prepared next time.)

That feels wrong because it seems that the dice are telling your PCs what they are doing:

PC: " I'm going to try and trip the Orc.
DM: No, the dice said you didn't. The dice said you actually attacked this round and did damage, no trip attempt.
PC: Huh?

next round,

PC lands his Deed die

DM: OK you just tripped the Orc, or whatever other Mighty Deed you can think of!
PC: Really? I was just rolling to attack. . . OK I trip him. ( was that exciting?)

I guess I like for my players to tell me what they are doing before they roll the dice and then the dice let me know if they were successful or not. It seems here that the dice are dictating the roll playing a bit. ( maybe a bit like WHQ 3rd edition?) You have accomplished a Deed whether you wanted to or not.

Can the Deed die be seen as a check to see if you did something special that round? If it procs then you accomplished a Mighty Deed as you are always trying to accomplish something mighty. It seems after the fact check though. I guess that could be fun, but not in the way I envisioned. I really like for players to get creative and take chances or die trying, I though the mighty Deeds were a perfect vehicle for that, but it seems they are not really intended to reflect that type of gameplay unless you house rule it. ( which is what I'll probably do in the end)

I think , in my game, it's imperative that you describe your mighty Deed beforehand and then we see if your crazy idea actually works. Instead of, your crazy idea working automatically as you wait for your mighty deed die to eventually proc. It just feels backwards to me.