Goodman Games

I searched the posts and found a few discussions of gunpowder weapons. Has anyone tried out any of these or houseruled them more. I'm thinking of adding just muskets in for zero.level town militia with limited shots

I haven't used or created rules for them, but if I did I'd give something like a matchlock musket 1d10 damage, a range comparable to a shortbow, and a woeful rate of fire (two full rounds to reload, and so can only be fired every third round).

Colin

I'm planning to add ancient laser weapons.

Ravenheart87 wrote:I'm planning to add ancient laser weapons.

Me too!

I find it causes a lot less "problems" at the table to include fictional artillery than to attempt a fair representation of real-world firearms.

No arguments about how a .50 cal rifle should be the most damage in the game because the real-life rifle can kill you just by getting a bullet "close enough" to your body, and no complaints over limited ammunition availability based on "well, I know how to make black powder and my character is an alchemist with 16 intelligence so he should know already too"

My great complaints about fantasy worlds that decide to introduce firearms are the ideas that firearms:
1) follow the exact same form of development as in the real world;
2) are more powerful than existing weapons; and
3) are ridiculously expensive (usually to "balance out" how much more powerful they are than standard weapons).

Historically speaking, firearms became the king of the battlefield not because of their power, but because of their ease of use. Training a musketeer takes a significantly smaller amount of time than training a bowman, even when dealing with comparatively cruddy matchlock firearms. Also, since most dungeon-crawl fantasy settings happen in a 11th to 15th century sort of period, one can safely ascribe firearms to that level of development--the earliest firearms date to 10th century China, and Europeans definitely had them by the beginning of the 14th century.

Damage-wise, a major hit from a sword will actually do more damage to a person than a direct hit from most firearms. Bullets can kill you from penetration, but the real danger is infection; and in a rules system that doesn't care about that sort of thing, it's pretty much irrelevant. That is to say: in a realistic sense getting hit by either straight-on will kill you dead, but in a narrative sense people are about as likely to get a graze from a bullet as they are a cut on the arm from a sword. And since a hero dying from gangrene is both non-fun and unlikely in a world full of magical healing, we can pretty safely ignore the perils of battlefield surgery.

To address the first point now: Why does everyone assume the same linear progression of firearm technology for a fantasy world as for the real world? The equipment list is already a hodgepodge of several centuries' worth of weapon and armor development, containing all kinds of things that are either way too advanced for a medieval world or way too primitive for the pre-Renaissance period. Also, people tend to think that magic somehow retards the development of technology, which is a little weird in a setting where magic is neither widespread nor commonly available. If anything, magic should aid in the development of technology, since the people who want to master the secrets of the universe through sorcery would still be interested in mastering the secrets of the universe through science (and indeed, in more than a few Appendix N examples, science and sorcery are two expressions of the same kind of learning).

So I guess what I'm saying is this: I like guns in fantasy settings. I think they make sense and add to the milieu, especially in settings where guns would naturally be part of the world--like pirate settings, gothic horror settings, and fantasy-westerns. I don't think they need to be pigeonholed into "matchlock," "flintlock" and so on either.

A while back, I ran a setting that had firearms powered by "percussion gel," a form of gelatinous alchemical substance that explodes when it's struck too hard (basically, gel-cap nitroglycerin). The guns fired heavy iron shot, and had "cap-holes" where the used dropped in a gel-cap and then closed the lid. There's a small magnet at the back of the gun to hold the ball in place until the percussion gel detonates and sends it flying, so they can be kept "locked and loaded" for quick-drawing and immediate firing. When the trigger is pulled, a small hammer strikes the cap-chamber, causing a tiny explosion that sends the ball flying toward its target. Percussion pistols and percussion muskets (sometimes called "hammerguns") weren't cheap in that setting--but they were't rare, or legendary, or really much more expensive than a good longbow.

If I were going to stat up common firearms for DCC, I might do it like this:
Did you notice what's not in there? Loading times. They're not fun, and they're not even particularly "realistic" given the quick speed with which fantasy archers get off shots all the time. These guns are roughly equivalent to a good melee weapon but don't get Strength to damage, and wobble the crit/fumble tables. Their range is better than thrown weapons but worse than most missile weapons, which neatly addresses the fact that most real-world primitive guns had very poor range. "But why do they do the same damage?" someone is inevitably going to ask. Well, because for a primitive firearm like this, a longer barrel just adds stability (i.e., range) and doesn't actually let it carry a bigger load of percussion gel.

On the other hand, you could probably make one of these as a custom weapon:
Anyway, that (probably too long) rant is my take on the whole firearms in fantasy issue.

blackwing, that post was exactly the right length. I think you've developed a wonderful take on how projectile weapons could work in these sorts of settings.

The Carsosa supplement includes many rules and statistics on alien technology, including laser weapons and explosives.

You could also stay tuned for the 'The God that Crawls' adventure for Lamentation of the Flame Princess, as it will include firearm rules - if its anything like any of Raggi's other work it should be simply and blend well with fantasy weapons.

I'm in the process of trying to build up some rules for introducing high tech weapons and armour to DCC so you can start mucking about with the 'sword and planet' side of Appendix N.

Smathis has something lined up for Transyvanian Adventures? yes?

I've been waiting to see what James Raggi does with guns as part of his Indiegogo (it's like kickstarter) project, The Monolith from Beyond Space and Time. It's going to be part of the rules supplement filling out the 2nd adventure, The God That Crawls.

http://www.indiegogo.com/The-Monolith-f ... e-and-Time

a couple of things:
people aren't interested in fantasy because it's historically accurate, but because medievalism has taken on a "epic" and "heroic" quality in our collective cultural mind. Guns break that up for a reason you referenced...they don't require heros to operate. sure james bond is a hero with gun, but he's not a very dnd kind of hero and he sure wasn't using an hand-culverin. actually I can't think of one hand culverin slinging figure from popular fiction.
these things were heavily controlled by the state and wouldn't have been used outside of large battles in the same way that dnd characters rarely use a lot of really common medieval weaponry (especially polearms) that wasn't really used outside of really large battles v calvary.
then again ITS FANTASY so do whatever you want. but I wouldn't want adventure in a party where someone was firing off an incredibly loud and smoky weapon in the close quarters of a building or a dungeon.
BTW: DCC rounds are ten seconds long, plenty of time to draw, notch and fire an arrow.

maldoror wrote:people aren't interested in fantasy because it's historically accurate, but because medievalism has taken on a "epic" and "heroic" quality in our collective cultural mind. Guns break that up for a reason you referenced...

I know plenty of folks who play highly historical fantasy games with only minor touches of the supernatural, whether inspired by ancient Greek or Roman myth or other non-medieval periods. Similarly, some popular fantasy settings are not medieval and do feature gunpowder weapons, like Warhammer, Iron Kingdoms, Clockwork & Chivalry, etc.

The Iron Kingdoms (which I was involved with, btw) also didn't make the assumption that the firearms followed strictly Earth-centric development, and used a mechanism unique to the setting which didn't involve gunpowder as we recognize it either.

cheers!
Colin

That's awesome, Collin! We are talking about the same Iron Kingdoms, right? From Privateer Press?

Guns don't break verisimilitude. People often overcompensate for their damage, but anything in the d6-d10 range is a about right (pistols on the low end, muskets and rifles on the high).

Vanguard wrote:That's awesome, Collin! We are talking about the same Iron Kingdoms, right? From Privateer Press?

Yes. I wrote several of the critters in the Monsternomicon (the two I'm proudest of being the Gremlins and Gristle & Flay), did a chunk of Lock & Load (the various revised classes and most of the new equipment and weapons), created the Gun Mage (and order of the Arcane Tempest, which was from my home games), and wrote several articles in No Quarter too. To date I've been involved in over 50 rpg publications in ways big and small, had several nominated for (and win) Origins, ENnie, and Indie RPG Awards (including my own rpg, Atomic Highway, which was nominated for the Best Rules ENnie and Indie RPG Awards in 2010).

Here's a listing, but it doesn't include magazines and needs a bit of updating:

TALISLANTA
1. A Players Guide to Talislanta
2. A Gamemaster’s Guide to Talislanta
3. The Menagerie
4. Hotan's History of the World
5. Northern Reaches, The
6. The Darkness
7. Chronicles of Talislanta: Revised
8. Midnight Realm
9. Talislanta Fantasy RPG, 4e.
10. Talislanta: Tenth Anniversary Edition

ORE
11. Wild Talents
12. Wild Talents Essential Edition
13. Talent Operations Command Intelligence Bulletin 3 Marine Talent Operations in the Pacific Theater
14. Will to Power

ALL FLESH MUST BE EATEN
15. Book of Archetypes 2: Attack of the Archetypes
16. Book of Archetypes, The
17. Enter the Zombie
18. Zombie Master Screen

IRON KINGDOMS
19. Iron Kingdoms World Guide
20. Iron Kingdoms Character Guide
21. Lock & Load: Iron Kingdoms Character Primer
22. Monsternomicon: Volume 1 - Denizens of the Iron Kingdoms

OMNI SYSTEM
23. Atlantis: The Second Age
24. High Medieval
25. The Omni System
26. Hellas: Worlds of Sun and Stone
27. Hellas: Princes of the Universe
28. Terran Trade Authority

A|STATE
29. Lostfinders Guide to Mire End, The

CASTLES & CRUSADES
30. Castles & Crusades Player's Handbook
31. Castles & Crusades: Collectors Edition

WASTE WORLD
32. A Fist Full of Credits: Waste World Starter Pak
33. Hydra

UBIQUITY
34. Secrets of the Surface World (Hollow Earth Expedition)
35. Mysteries of the Hollow Earth (Hollow Earth Expedition)
36. Leagues of Adventure

CARTOON ACTION HOUR: SEASON 2
37. Cartoon Action Hour: Season 2
38. Giant Transforming Robots
39. Going Japanese

FAERY'S TALE
40. Faery's Tale Deluxe

MISCELLANEOUS
41. Arms & Armor (d20 System)
42. Barbarians of Lemuria
43. Cthulhu by Gaslight 3rd ed.
44. Tribe 8 Companion
45. Unhallowed Metropolis Companion
46. Unhallowed Metropolis – Up The River
47. Unhallowed Metropolis - revised
48. Divers & Sundry - Clockwork & Chivalry
49. Clockwork & Chivalry 2nd ed.

R.A.D.
50. Atomic Highway
51. Irradiated Freaks
52. ION Guard – ICONS edition
53. ION Guard – BASH! edition

It's certainly a to each his own sort of thing. I myself find firearms as anathema to fantasy gaming. There are no guns in Lord of the Rings, no one in Conan stories uses them, and I don't recall ever seeing them in the old 1st ed Ad&D adventures despite if they showed up in a rule book. I guess what I am saying is that to me, they do not feel at all like the sort of thing that belongs in the setting. Something about a guy in full plate lifting his revolver....just can't do it.

reverenddak wrote:Smathis has something lined up for Transyvanian Adventures? yes?

Yes, TA/TG has guns. Muskets, Flintlocks, PIstols, Rifles and Derringers. They have their own Crit/Fumble tables because they didn't fit into any of the existing ones. And also because the effects/severity of a Crit/Fumble was related more to the firearm than the shooter's skill with it. I mean, someone skilled at shooting would get more rolls on the Crit table. While the oomph of the weapon would determine how bad the Crit was. I hope that made sense.

Firearms also have an interesting twist that make them do either buttloads of damage or very little damage. A friend of mine (and playtester) is a Marine and he gave me the skinny on getting shot. According to him, sometimes it's not that big a deal. Sometimes it's a very big deal. TA/TG reflects that.

Like a lot of things, TA/TG takes a broad narrative brush with firearms. Pistols are pistols. Are they powder cartridges? .22 caliber? .38 caliber? Meh. Whatever. TA/TG isn't that type of game. And guns aren't super-cheap. But bullets sure are. It's harder to find a gun in TA/TG than it is to buy one.

It would be incredibly simple to "reskin" the firearms in TA/TG into laser rifles. Tack on one of the Exotic's upgrades and you can have a machinegun. TA/TG would work as well for something like Vampire Hunter D as it would for Horror of Dracula. That's a benefit of keeping it simple.

Colin wrote:Here's a listing, but it doesn't include magazines and needs a bit of updating...

Just going to say...

First, wow. Just wow. That's an awesome list/resume right there, Colin.

Second, it was not only humbling but I felt downright meek following that post with my response to reverenddak.

I'm truly not worthy.

And great work on Atomic Highway. That's a damn fine game.

Juggalo78 wrote:It's certainly a to each his own sort of thing. I myself find firearms as anathema to fantasy gaming. There are no guns in Lord of the Rings, no one in Conan stories uses them, and I don't recall ever seeing them in the old 1st ed Ad&D adventures despite if they showed up in a rule book. I guess what I am saying is that to me, they do not feel at all like the sort of thing that belongs in the setting. Something about a guy in full plate lifting his revolver....just can't do it.

What about Murlynd? (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murlynd)

I only ask because I have always found that people, like you have done, will quote some of the old school materials, but ignore little bits like Murlynd and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (both involving "high-tech" stuff and both having the involvement of Gary Gygax himself) yet seem to believe that "the way the setting is supposed to be" is supported by the particular stuff quoted.

Not meaning to call you out, I just have a pet obsession with the issue... probably something to do with my Appendix N being littered with guns, alien technology, inter-dimensional travelers, interplanetary adventure, and so much more that I have seen many believe do not "belong," even though both Gary & Dave seemed to think they did.

I have no problem with a game that embraces Solomon Kane, either!



The trick is, I think, to have the firearm rules allow an encounter to begin with guns and end with other weapons, as often occurs in Solomon Kane stories.

RC

Raven_Crowking wrote:I have no problem with a game that embraces Solomon Kane, either!

The trick is, I think, to have the firearm rules allow an encounter to begin with guns and end with other weapons, as often occurs in Solomon Kane stories.

RC

In playtests with TA/TG, guns typically come out in the first round and then become bludgeons. Reloading the powder weapons takes more time than most players want to spend unless they're already at range. Pistols and Rifles have more shots to them. But once they're empty it takes longer to reload them.

The changes to firearms damage also makes them very unpredictable weapons. So while a character might blow a ghoul's head off with one shot, other shots might barely injure other ghouls. As a result, players have been more apt to fire off a couple of rounds and then whip out a sword or axe. Because the traditional weapons are far more predictable in the amount of damage they will produce.

And Joseph has suggested I let people know that many elements in TA/TG can be used in other settings. Firearms and the Firearms Crit/Fumble tables just being one of many, many things in TA/TG that are easily used in any other DCC game.

smathis wrote:

Raven_Crowking wrote:I have no problem with a game that embraces Solomon Kane, either!

The trick is, I think, to have the firearm rules allow an encounter to begin with guns and end with other weapons, as often occurs in Solomon Kane stories.

RC

In playtests with TA/TG, guns typically come out in the first round and then become bludgeons.

Which is exactly as it should be & is in the literature.

smathis wrote:Just going to say...

First, wow. Just wow. That's an awesome list/resume right there, Colin.

Second, it was not only humbling but I felt downright meek following that post with my response to reverenddak.

I'm truly not worthy.

And great work on Atomic Highway. That's a damn fine game.

Thanks for the kind words.

Colin

This is an Ian Baggley illo for Northwind Adventures/Jeffrey Talanian's upcoming Astonishing Swordsman & Sorcerers of Hyberboria (which I helped Kickstart).



Talanian collaborated w/ Gary on a number of Castle Zagyg projects, and AS&SH shares some of the same major inspirations as the DCC RPG:

Hyperborea is largely inspired by the fantastic creations of RE Howard, HP Lovecraft, and CA Smith.

Our core product is Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea, a role-playing game of swords, sorcery, and weird-fantasy, whose rules are inspired by the creations of Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

So, if that's playing wrong, I don't wanna do it right

*True, not a gunpowder weapon, but (a) Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was mentioned, and (b) badass picture, right?

What about Murlynd? (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murlynd)

I only ask because I have always found that people, like you have done, will quote some of the old school materials, but ignore little bits like Murlynd and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (both involving "high-tech" stuff and both having the involvement of Gary Gygax himself) yet seem to believe that "the way the setting is supposed to be" is supported by the particular stuff quoted.

Not meaning to call you out, I just have a pet obsession with the issue... probably something to do with my Appendix N being littered with guns, alien technology, inter-dimensional travelers, interplanetary adventure, and so much more that I have seen many believe do not "belong," even though both Gary & Dave seemed to think they did.

Well I have not delved into all of those things though I do know Barrier Peaks and consider it an unique adventure that is very self contained. Gygax said himself in the 1st ed DM Guide.

"
"Unless you desire to have gunpowder muddying the waters in your fantasy world, it is strongly urged that Boot Hill firearms be confined to specific areas, and when gunpowder is brought into the fantasy world it becomes inert junk-ergo, no clever alchemist can duplicate it. Likewise dynamite and similar explosives become inert".

It's all up to the individual but since you brought up Gygax I figured I would as well.

Robert E Howard, since you brought him up, included firearms in his Almuric stories.
And D&D includes them in the Savage Coast setting in first edition.

Also, about 400 years separates revolvers and full plate armor, about 10 years separate matchlock weapons and full plate armor. So it's easily historically appropriate to have black powder if Maximilian armor and halberds exist.

And then City of the Gods, DA3 is full of alien technology.

I guess for me, it would be incredibly boring if every setting had to be "Lord of the Rings" or "Conan." But you know all this, mang.

Rick that picture is my new desktop background. Amazing!

I may have to buy the game just for that picture. Not sure why but it just hits the right note with me. Maybe because the ray gun is easy to miss and so unexpected but once you notice it the entire picture takes on a new light.