Wizard Power

[Gameogre]

In the Beta Wizards were too hampered by the ever present threat of corruption and misfires ect.

In the finished game now though it seems we have gone to far the other way. With the ability to spend a point to negate any too harsh roll the wizards in my game are just running too far amok.
Now maybe I have misunderstood that rule or maybe my players have just rolled unusually well of late but every major fight now ends very shortly after it begins with the Wizard burning everything to the ground.

Now I understand that indeed letting PC's be awesome isn't a bad thing but it really is getting a little too much. The Warriors are starting to complain and the poor Thief is really feeling underpowered.

I do realize there are plenty of ways of dealing with this.

I just thought it might be worthy of a post and see what was going on in your game and if it matched mine. Also maybe I'm misunderstanding something or not taking something into account. The Wizard in question has a +6 to her casting roll at 2nd level. Now I do realize part of this is perhaps not keeping as tight a eye on character creation as I should have. The +3 for Int along with the +1 for luck due to the Luck Roll and +2 for the level is a little much.

[Rostranor]

Every time I have come out and said one class or another is overpowered someone else comes out with something that makes me say, WOW. I think that while some classes come out and shine no class lacks the ability to do that as well, only the conditions. The warriors Mighty Deeds ability is truly awesome. Its starts at low levels as awesome and continues to have the ability to make its presence known on the battlefield. The check that the Wizards have that Warriors don't is that Wizards need to have patrons. Don't let your players avoid having one and when they get one extract a price from them. Don't let the mechanics of spellburn and corruption rolls get in the way of making the magus pay for his arcane abilities.

[Gansk]

The Wizard in question has a +6 to her casting roll at 2nd level. Now I do realize part of this is perhaps not keeping as tight a eye on character creation as I should have. The +3 for Int along with the +1 for luck due to the Luck Roll and +2 for the level is a little much.

Should be +5, not +6. Do not include luck bonus on a spell check.

To quote the core rulebook:

"A wizard’s spell check is usually 1d20 + Intelligence modifier + caster level."

The wizard can burn luck or spellburn to get to +6, but that will deplete her abilities.

[Gunther Vielgesang]

Now I understand that indeed letting PC's be awesome isn't a bad thing but it really is getting a little too much. The Warriors are starting to complain and the poor Thief is really feeling underpowered.

I agree that this is a problem and am considering the following house rule:

Corruption cannot be avoided via Luck if spellburn is involved.

Spellburn is dangerous blood magic. If a wizard character wants to play it safe, he should avoid spellburn (even if that means casting fewer and less spectacular spells).

I've also limited spellburn to a maximum of +10, but that's another story.

Best wishes

Gunther

[cjoepar]

I agree that this is a problem and am considering the following house rule:

Corruption cannot be avoided via Luck if spellburn is involved.

Spellburn is dangerous blood magic. If a wizard character wants to play it safe, he should avoid spellburn (even if that means casting fewer and less spectacular spells).

I've also limited spellburn to a maximum of +10, but that's another story.

Best wishes

Gunther

That's a nice approach. I am also thinking that rather than putting a cap of 10 points on spellburn, maybe allowing more, but ruling than anything more than 9 points automatically causes corruption.

[Raven_Crowking]

If you occasionally include areas where spells do not work as normal, or have additional knock-on effects (see p. 358 of the core rulebook) for good or ill, you might find your wizards a little less eager to cast their spells willy-nilly. A little of this sort of thing goes a long way.

Likewise, for strange locations you can create a new spellburn chart, so that when the PCs call on Outer Forces to power their spells, specific Outer Forces answer, with specific consequences, whether the PCs will it or not. I am not saying "screw your players" or "don't let magic be powerful".....I am saying that magic is a powerful, but chancy, force. Bargains made with the Unknown do not always resolve themselves in the way you would wish.

[Gameogre]

The Wizard in question has a +6 to her casting roll at 2nd level. Now I do realize part of this is perhaps not keeping as tight a eye on character creation as I should have. The +3 for Int along with the +1 for luck due to the Luck Roll and +2 for the level is a little much.

Should be +5, not +6. Do not include luck bonus on a spell check.

To quote the core rulebook:

"A wizard’s spell check is usually 1d20 + Intelligence modifier + caster level."

The wizard can burn luck or spellburn to get to +6, but that will deplete her abilities.

She picked up the extra +1 from having a luck score that grants +1 AND rolling on the luck table and getting the score that lets you use luck on spellchecks.(picture of rolling eyes here). Next time I will pay close attention to character creation so I can personally see such a rare and wonderful thing.

[cthulhudarren]

Someone tell me if I am wrong, but Wizards do NOT have to have a patron. They are certainly more powerful if they have one due to patron aid and patron extra spells, but it is not required as far as I know.

[Raven_Crowking]

Someone tell me if I am wrong, but Wizards do NOT have to have a patron. They are certainly more powerful if they have one due to patron aid and patron extra spells, but it is not required as far as I know.

You are correct.

In fact, some wizards start their careers without access to invoke patron/patron bond btb, due to the roll of the dice.

[Skyscraper]

Someone tell me if I am wrong, but Wizards do NOT have to have a patron. They are certainly more powerful if they have one due to patron aid and patron extra spells, but it is not required as far as I know.

This is my understanding also.

[ragboy]

The fact that the wizard is burning luck to survive consequences is right and normal. Luck is a resource that, as it depletes, adds additional danger. As a GM, you should begin targeting the wizard with nasty effects as his or her luck depletes -- everything from being a target of choice in battle, to catching a nasty case of shingles from the last common room he crashed in, to having her spell book stolen when in the big city.

I don't know how liberal you (or other GMs) are with Luck, but I think the max I've given out is 2 in a session (to 2 different individuals). If the wizard is spending luck to avoid nasty consequences, there will be a reckoning eventually. You know, expeditions to destroy powerful wizards are the meat and potatoes of the genre. Flashing your power and luck are good ways to draw enemies.

Also, once there's a patron involved, the spellcaster should be at the entity's whim. There should be no question who's the master and who's the slave...er rather...devotee. Everything from impromptu quests of the patron's whim to requests from other devotees to attacks by rival cultists. I've found that the wizard, elf, and cleric classes make their own hooks by their associations. The rest of the classes are basically "henchmen" with these classes in the lead for some "grand purpose."

[oncelor]

The wizards in our campaign are really quite powerful in most situations compared to other characters. Part of the problem I'm seeing is that wizard spell bonuses increase much faster than monster saving throws, so that first level spells like "Color Spray" become almost impossible for monsters to save against even if they have twice the HD of the party. I've taken to giving standard monsters a little boost to all their saves. I do use things like dead-magic zones and monsters with resistances to spells, but a Judge can only use so much of this sort of thing to balance spell casting power before it starts to seem a little lame.

The misfire/corruption results really don't seem to impose any limit on the rate at which wizards cast spells. So far the divine disapproval results are far, far more debilitating to the clerics than corruption has hindered the wizards.

I've been finding that the thieves are tougher combatants than the warriors. At least in relatively small battles in which thieves can burn luck to ensure they hide from the monsters, hit, and score debilitating critical hits. To balance this I've been allowing MDoA results of 5 and 6 to be more powerful than some of the examples in the book.

[ragboy]

And ANOTHER thing...

Spellburn -- there should be consequences. Don't treat this as a simple mechanic. It's a complex and dangerous thing. For "simple" spellburn, the wizard is injuring himself in some way. While that damage heals, the wizard has a wound! Wounds fester, breed disease, and generally make the wizard unpleasant. Additionally, the effects of STR/AGI/STA loss should be played up -- the wizard can't carry as much, can't walk as far, trips and falls at critical times.

I took this idea a little further with a couple of my patrons -- there are real lasting effects, even if the wizard decides to hole up for a number of days to heal the damage (from King Halgaz Bekkur):

The caster burns physical attributes as desired, but the caster takes on some aspect of an undead creature (DMs choice of what type, but the caster may be surrounded by the stink of the grave, exhibit gray, dead skin, glassy eyes and yellowed teeth, etc.). Until these attributes are healed, the caster can be turned by lawful clerics as if he or she were undead (HD equal to Level+2). If the caster rolls a 1 on the Spell Check, these effects are permanent.

The caster burns physical attributes as desired – While these attributes are healed, the caster’s form appears wispy and insubstantial. There is no change to the caster’s actual physical presence, though the caster suffers a -4 on Personality checks when dealing with “regular folks.”

The caster suffers from the power of the Wraith King. The caster loses 1 Personality per physical ability point burned. Each physical ability point burned results in a +2 to the Spell Check. All physical abilities must be healed naturally before Personality points are healed. Should Personality drop to 0, the caster receives a patron taint and remains in a catatonic state until Personality heals to 1.

The eyes of the caster’s enemies are upon him or her. The sheer weight of hatred for the caster causes the physical damage (Strength, Stamina, or Agility).

With the last one -- even if the wizard holes up in an inn for a few days, perhaps the caster's enemies find him or otherwise disrupt his vacation...

[Rostranor]

I agree, a wizard isn't required to have a patron. However, as they advance and do more arcane feats I will have my magic users come to the attention of other powers as unaligned wizards. Some will be targeted as enemies, others tempted as allies. I have also been liberal with them finding patron bond for various patrons. ( I home brewed that each patron has their wn version of patron bond)

[Gameogre]

The fact that the wizard is burning luck to survive consequences is right and normal. Luck is a resource that, as it depletes, adds additional danger. As a GM, you should begin targeting the wizard with nasty effects as his or her luck depletes -- everything from being a target of choice in battle, to catching a nasty case of shingles from the last common room he crashed in, to having her spell book stolen when in the big city.

I don't know how liberal you (or other GMs) are with Luck, but I think the max I've given out is 2 in a session (to 2 different individuals). If the wizard is spending luck to avoid nasty consequences, there will be a reckoning eventually. You know, expeditions to destroy powerful wizards are the meat and potatoes of the genre. Flashing your power and luck are good ways to draw enemies.

Also, once there's a patron involved, the spellcaster should be at the entity's whim. There should be no question who's the master and who's the slave...er rather...devotee. Everything from impromptu quests of the patron's whim to requests from other devotees to attacks by rival cultists. I've found that the wizard, elf, and cleric classes make their own hooks by their associations. The rest of the classes are basically "henchmen" with these classes in the lead for some "grand purpose."

It isn't so much that the Wizard in question is burning luck because she isn't. She has been tossing magic around like candy and has yet to roll a 1. She has failed and lost the spell a few times but then they just camped till she got it back. I hit them while camping with monsters ect..and really that was the only time the party was threatened.

The thing with wizards is...as long as the players luck runs good its all fine and dandy. It's only once bad rolls keep reoccurring that things turn from Magic candy land into Hellrazor. The last Wizard in the party had the exact opposite issue(why he is the warrior now). That guy couldn't cast to save his life and walked around with a 4 Luck in order to be only mildly malformed. Dice rolls make all the difference.

I know luck doesn't hold out forever and am letting her enjoy the good times. I just wish it didn't bum the rest of the group out to feel so underpowered. Though the X-Wizard who is playing a Warrior doesn't complain.He just winces whenever she powers off and counts himself and everyone else lucky. He knows what is coming eventually.

[caveman]

One question, are you making the wizard declare Spellburn before the roll? I felt like Wizards were overpowered until I realized that was the case.

But, yeah, it really comes down to the rolls.

[Skyscraper]

One question, are you making the wizard declare Spellburn before the roll? I felt like Wizards were overpowered until I realized that was the case.

But, yeah, it really comes down to the rolls.

Do spellburns need tobe declared before a roll? Hehe, I didn't know that

[Colin]

The Warriors are starting to complain and the poor Thief is really feeling underpowered.

While the 18 Int *and* +1 Luck bonus *and* rolling for a birth augur that grants said bonus to spellcasting is certainly possible, unless I'd seen such miraculous rolls, I'd be sceptical. I'm also curious which spells the character started with and how they determined them?

I'm also curious why both the warriors and thief players are complaining? A warrior's mighty deeds can be staggering in the hands of a creative player, and as for a thief moaning about not being so adept at dealing death as the others, well, they're a thief. They should be hanging back, sneaking around, causing distractions and otherwise being more of a ninja and amazing scout rather than a combatant anyway. With their great Luck and abilities, Thieves are brilliant to play, but you wouldn't necessarily expect them to shine like a diamond when it comes to smack down.

Colin

[Gameogre]

Played all day today....pretty dang tired.

The Wizard steamrolled over any issues but twice.Well the party pretty much did but the Wizard was blasting down every Big Bad guy while the warriors ect played clean up. Two of the fights though she caught issues.

The first one was when 6 bandit archers focus fired her butt and took her to 0 in the first round. The second was when a bandit Wizard of higher level got off a chain lightning and took her(and dang near everyone else) down to a few hit points. During that encounter she bailed on her comrades and hauled butt out of the area. The Thief showed his muscle that fight and took the Bad Wizard out pretty darn fast from stealth.

Still out of perhaps 33ish spell check rolls 2 failed and she lost the spell. The rest of the time she rocked the house. Not once did she roll a 1.

Don't get me wrong. Today wasn't a issue really. I don't mind the power when the downsides come into play and low hit points was certainly a factor.

One of the other players who is playing a elf with a +3 spell check got off ONE magic missile the entire day. He was a sad puppy...until he threw the winning shot that took out the big bad.He rolled for crap on his to hit rolls as well.Just not his day.

[Skars]

"Make a reflex save or die" ought to bring a little humility back to any spell slinger

[cthulhudarren]

The Thief showed his muscle that fight and took the Bad Wizard out pretty darn fast from stealth.

I'm curious how folks deal with sneak attack. Can it be done over and over again in battle by hiding? I'm thinking it should only be usable by surprise? The rules are unclear IMHO.

[Gameogre]

Only by surprise OR from behind at my table.

Not many monsters are going to stand there and leave someone at their back with a drawn blade ect.. but it does happen when surrounded,taken by surprise or the monster simple ignores them.

That does happen often in our games when the warriors ect engage a round or two ahead of the others. Who are you going to try and deal with first the guy that has done 22 damage to you or the guy who has dealt 11? Still....most of the time if possible they will try and turn or back away so that they can face both.

[Raven_Crowking]

I allow warriors to use their Mighty Deed to set up a possible sneak attack.

[cthulhudarren]

I allow warriors to use their Mighty Deed to set up a possible sneak attack.

Good idear, I think I'll steal it!

[themightyeroc]

One question, are you making the wizard declare Spellburn before the roll? I felt like Wizards were overpowered until I realized that was the case.

But, yeah, it really comes down to the rolls.

Do spellburns need to be declared before a roll? Hehe, I didn't know that

Hey, yeah there we go. Our Wizard has been using Spellburn in the same way as luck. Duh! If he has to declare how much he burns before rolling a casting roll that makes magic much scarier!!!! I will pay better attention to this from here on and relay that to the player at the start of our next session.