The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs (Superseded by New Post)

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Melfast
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The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs (Superseded by New Post)

Post by Melfast »

Edit 12/14/20 -- This is an old post, and I have replaced this approach with a better, simpler one that I think is actually what the rules have been telling me all along, but which I have missed due to my preconceived notions about the Shaman as an analogue to the Wizard or Cleric. They are not, any more than mutants are.

Here is the updated version:

--------------------------------------------------------------

MCC Shaman Programs (How they Work RAW IMO)

“The maximum number of total wetware programs that a shaman can learn is determined by the program check result of their Patron AI Bond program when run, and limited or expanded by their Intelligence score (see Table 1-1: Ability Score Modifiers).”
-- P 140, MCC Core Book

This really is the rule. All programs learned from your Patron AI after Invoke Patron AI are gift programs, subject to the use limits of your Patron AI Bond check. You learn your Patron AI programs at the rate indicated in Table 2-2 as long as your Intelligence is high enough (Table 1-1). (See MCC Core Book, p 16 and p. 28.)

Your number of gift programs gained from your Patron AI Bond check are limited (reduced) or expanded (increased) by your Max Wetware Programs Modifier on Table 1-1. If you did not roll a high enough Patron AI Bond check to get any gift programs, then you are starting with zero gift programs and modifying that number based on your Intelligence score. You always get at least one (Invoke Patron AI).

A-B-C's

A – First roll your Patron AI Bond and determine how many programs you are able to learn.

B – Second, determine which Patron AI programs you know.

C – Third, write your learned programs on your character sheet along with the other key elements of your Patron AI Bond check -- any Invoke Patron AI bonus and how often can you use your Patron AI's programs. I recommend also writing down the number of your check for later reference.

That's it. You're done.

--------------------------------------------------------------

OLD POST: You can find a PDF with all the contents of my old A-B-C's post here: https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ak88KIALsgrVioAgiCD ... g?e=DseTMr

I have deleted it to prevent confusion, but I wanted to make it available to anyone who prefers it or wants to go back and look at it.

Please post your thoughts about the new approach at my new post: https://goodman-games.com/forums/viewto ... 84&t=49166

Thanks.

Happy gaming...

-- Melfast
Last edited by Melfast on Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:30 am, edited 6 times in total.
Melfast
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs

Post by Melfast »

Fellow Travelers in the Waste

While this holds together ok, I still I have areas I'd like help from the MCC brain trust to answer.

1) Based on the quote from p. 140, I have applied the Patron AI Bond result to determine the frequency of how often the Shaman can use their programs. I'm not sure that is right. Should all the Shaman programs except Invoke Patron AI and Gift programs work like Mutations and DCC spells? Use them until you fail a roll?

2) Can a Shaman use Glowburn to get the use of a program after they failed a check (like using Spellburn to get the use of a spell after a failed check)?

3) Can a Shaman use Glowburn to get the use of a program after they have run out of weekly/daily uses?

4) Can a Shaman re-roll their Patron AI Bond when they go up a level like characters with passive mutations can reroll the effect?

5) This system to calculate Shaman programs makes the Shaman very dependent on having a high Intelligence score. Will this hold up compared to the classes using mutations? Manimals will have 2-3 mutations. Mutants will have 2-5 mutations. Plantients will have 1-3 mutations. Shamans will likely have 1-3 Programs assuming you optimize for Intelligence. With a high Patron AI Bond, you could have 1-2 more as gifts.

Let me know what you think. Questions 2-4 would be good to know regardless of how you are calculating the number of programs a Shaman has.

Thanks.
maceo_the_escher
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs

Post by maceo_the_escher »

Thanks for putting this together and I agree with every one of your examples (which also makes ME feel good about my understanding.) The autofill sheet is not enabled for others to use it-I'm not sure if you intended that or not.

As far as your questions:

1) Should all the Shaman programs except Invoke Patron AI and Gift programs work like Mutations and DCC spells? Use them until you fail a roll? Yes, if they have a bonus program from Int. that's how I treat it-just like a DCC spell.

2) Can a Shaman use Glowburn to get the use of a program after they failed a check? I think that would be fine. Anything that makes the game more exciting. The only sticking point is the flavor doesn't quite match as well as with DCC but it could be worked around. I just have to get creative.

3) Can a Shaman use Glowburn to get the use of a program after they have run out of weekly/daily uses? I say why not.

4) Can a Shaman re-roll their Patron AI Bond when they go up a level like characters with passive mutations can reroll the effect? Yes

5) Plus using Tech
Last edited by maceo_the_escher on Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Melfast
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs

Post by Melfast »

Hey maceo_the_escher

Thanks for the comments and answers to my questions!

I did not make the sheet editable, but you should be able to download it and use it without any problems. Let me know if that doesn't work, and I will change the permissions. (The problem I've had with letting people edit a shared version of a worksheet is that it often ends up with a formula being accidentally deleted or the file becoming corrupted.)

I'm leaning the same way you are on the answers.

Happy gaming...

Melfast
maceo_the_escher
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs

Post by maceo_the_escher »

Perfect! Saved it to my google drive and it works perfectly. Awesome work! Thank you.

In regards to question 1, check out page 10 "MCC RPG Rules Mechanics of Note" the third bullet. I was reading the book over again this morning.

Shamans may or may not lose their wetware programs
from memory after a casting. A low result means the shaman
cannot run the program again that day. On a high
result, they can run the program again.
Melfast
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs

Post by Melfast »

Maceo_the_escher

I'm glad it is working.

Good catch on the text on p. 10. I think that reinforces the option you were recommending concerning non-gift programs. I like it as it treats them the same way as active mutations -- use them until you fail a check. Invoke Patron AI and the gift programs work differently as the Patron AI Bond check defines their uses per week/day.

You are also right that the Shaman's greater affinity for learning and using artifacts is an advantage.

Happy gaming...

- Melfast
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs

Post by Melfast »

Hey Maceo_the_escher

I've been really happy with the discussion around Shaman. Thanks for your ideas and suggestions.

I've just gone back to the beginning and rethought my approach. I think I was overcomplicating how Shaman work for getting their programs, because I was hung up with the comparison to DCC spells, and their implied parallels to the Wizard and Cleric classes.

I reached out to an MCC Designer and asked. Their answer got me to rethink my understanding. Shaman are not like Wizards or Clerics. They work differently. (I think it is because part of their class is PSH.)

Here's what they said: "Intelligence determines the maximum program level possible for the shaman, and the results of the Invoke Patron AI spell determines the number of program uses available per day"

I went back and looked at what is said on pg 140, "The maximum number of total wetware programs that a shaman can learn is determined by the program check result of their Patron AI Bond program when run, and limited or expanded by their Intelligence score (see Table 1-1: Ability Score Modifiers)."

Then I re-listened to what was said by the Glowburn crew on their podcast after playing with Jim Wampler at a Con, I have completely reworked my approach to Shaman.

I posted the new idea here: https://goodman-games.com/forums/viewto ... 84&t=49166

I didn't think it would work well at first, but after noodling it, it actually works well even with multiple Patron AI. It is different than using spells or mutations, because you get limited uses of programs per day instead of using them until you miss a check (although if you have multiple uses per day, you can be locked out of using a program by a bad roll). It takes a while to build power compared to Mutants, for example. But, it solves most of the things I was trying to reconcile to include the potential to have 10 programs by level 10, since Jim had mentioned it was possible (it just takes two Patron AI, and high Patron AI Bond rolls and Intelligence.)

And most importantly, it is simple like the rest of the game.

Let me know what you think over on that post. (Along with anyone else reading this.)

Happy gaming...

-- Melfast
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs (Superseded by New Post)

Post by The Disgruntled Poet »

Hey gang, cool discussion and cool breakdown, I think most of the A-B-Cs looks right to me. Looking at the questions:


1) Based on the quote from p. 140, I have applied the Patron AI Bond result to determine the frequency of how often the Shaman can use their programs. I'm not sure that is right. Should all the Shaman programs except Invoke Patron AI and Gift programs work like Mutations and DCC spells? Use them until you fail a roll?

Poet answer: No, RAW they are use rarely as awarded by Patron (i.e, like DCC patron spells). At your table, you can always choose to play it how you like, naturally. I think if you want a different model, and nothing wrong with that, you can try out Pozenel's Enchiridion of the Computarchs

2) Can a Shaman use Glowburn to get the use of a program after they failed a check (like using Spellburn to get the use of a spell after a failed check)?

Poet answer: This has come up several times in games I've run, not just for shamans but also for mutants. Technically, the answer is no since I believe the RAW don't specify this. I think it makes more sense to allow it for mutants (as a houserule) since they are closer to Wizards/Elves in DCC. I wouldn't allow it for patron spells in DCC, hence I wouldn't allow it in MCC patron spells either. BUT (big but)... if you want to negotiate with your patron, she/he/it might very well make you a deal to give you another casting for a small ("small") favor.

3) Can a Shaman use Glowburn to get the use of a program after they have run out of weekly/daily uses?

Poet answer: Pretty much exact same answer as above.

4) Can a Shaman re-roll their Patron AI Bond when they go up a level like characters with passive mutations can reroll the effect?

Poet answer: Not in RAW that I reccall, but I would let some renegotiations come about via roleplay and Patron service/quests/favors, etc. IMO, this should be driven by the narrative, not the rules!

5) This system to calculate Shaman programs makes the Shaman very dependent on having a high Intelligence score. Will this hold up compared to the classes using mutations? Manimals will have 2-3 mutations. Mutants will have 2-5 mutations. Plantients will have 1-3 mutations. Shamans will likely have 1-3 Programs assuming you optimize for Intelligence. With a high Patron AI Bond, you could have 1-2 more as gifts.

Poet answer: Keeping in mind that DCC/MCC is not a stat-inflation power-game in the 3x and later mode, Shamans will generally have a high(er) INT, as that's their most important stat, and also stacks with their artifact check bonus, which is probably the even more important class capability in MCC. Combined with PSH stuff like regen. Luck, they are artifact checking machines. The parties should be giving their artifacts to the shaman to check and the shaman should be keeping many of these artifacts and probably calling some of the shots. After all she/he is the wise-woman/man of the tribe.
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs (Superseded by New Post)

Post by Melfast »

Disgruntled Poet

Thanks for coming on the post and providing answers to my questions!

I had been considering gift programs and programs from high intelligence as two separate things. In which case, it made sense to me to think of these bonus programs from high Intelligence like DCC spells and following the same rules as mutations and DCC spells. That also lines up with the way maceo_the_escher was looking at them.

My revised approach in my newer post, what I'm thinking of as the RAW approach, is more like the way you see it your answers. All programs are gift programs, your Intelligence score just could give you more or fewer of them. They are all limited to the uses gained from the Patron AI Bond check.

With that in mind, I agree with your answers to number 1 and number 5.

Your answers for number 2 and 3 seem to be what the rules say. Given mutations and wetware are supposed to work like DCC Spells ,and glowburn is the equivalent of spellburn, I think as a house rule I would allow it, but I would need to come up with a clearer point cost for mutations, since spells cost one point of spellburn per spell level and mutations don't have levels.

I also agree that if I don't allow the houserule, I would probably do what you suggest and allow a Shaman to negotiate with their Patron AI for an additional use at a cost. This would probably cost a point of luck and a Patron debt of some sort.

FInally, I think your answer to number 4 is also RAW. Given passive mutations can be re-rolled each level, it is not a stretch to allow the Shaman to re-re-roll their Patron AI bond, but it is not stated in the rules. The Glowburn hosts have interpreted it to be re-rollable on their show, but that is not official. I like your idea of doing as a form of quest for it / negotiation with the Patron AI.

Thanks again.

Happy gaming.

-- Melfast
Melfast
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs (Superseded by New Post)

Post by Melfast »

Thinking further after my post above, if a Judge does want to add an option for Shamans to use their wetware or characters to use their mutations after failure / having no slots analogously to Wizards in DCC, I have come up with two optional rules for consideration.

Luck to Run Gift Wetware Programs: A Shaman may burn a point of Luck to gain a single use of a gift program. They must also spend one point of Glowburn per level of the wetware program to run the program. These expended points do not add to the check roll.

Glowburn to use Mutation Lost for the Day: A Mutant can use Glowburn to run a mutation that has been lost for the day due to a failed check. The cost to use the mutation is one point of Glowburn per the number of times the character has used Glowburn that day to use a mutation that has been lost due to a failed check (regardless of what mutation it was), i.e., the third use of Glowburn that day to run a mutation that has been lost due to failing a check would cost three points of Glowburn. These expended points do not add to the check roll.

These rules do make the characters using them have a little more surge ability, but a the cost of sustained ability, so it may even out. It does let them use their Shaman Program or Mutation in their desperate hours, leaving them weaker for anything that follows.

I have added these optional rules to my House Rules document (see my House Rules post).

Let me know what you think of these rules. Would you use them? How would you change them?

Happy gaming...

-- Melfast
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs (Superseded by New Post)

Post by The Disgruntled Poet »

Hi Melfast,

I am not too keen on the first rule as I think the Patron should demand some service for a restored program. The wetware comes from the Patron. I mean, unless you reimagine the Shaman as a wetware-casting MCC Wizard a la Pozenal, which is fine with me, but not per the way it's designed in RAW. IMO, anyway.

I like the second rule a lot. The escalating cost keeps that somewhat under control... I'd be happy to use that at the table (and if I can remember it, I will!)

Cheers, thanks for keeping the glow burning!
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs (Superseded by New Post)

Post by Melfast »

Hey Disgruntled Poet

Thanks for the feedback!

I get it, and I think that is a valid point. Technically, all uses of a Patron AI wetware incurs some sort of obligation, though, so this would just be more. Effectively, though, you are right that it can't be too burdensome to use their base wetware, so this rule would probably not have the same in-game impact as your suggestion.

My intent was to help the Shaman have a little more flexibility when they may only know one or two wetware programs and only get one use per day. I'll consider it some more and may tinker with the rule to either a) add a negotiation before you can take advantage or the rule, or b) just provide an optional rule that says you can negotiate to get another use for a cost to be determined by your Patron AI. Not that you can't do that now, but this would just make it clearer.

Happy gaming...

-- Melfast
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Re: The A-B-C's of Determining Your Shaman's Programs (Superseded by New Post)

Post by The Disgruntled Poet »

Re: #1, I think I mentioned really briefly around here but maybe not... one of the approaches that is explicitly mentioned in the book IIRC is to bond to more than one patron. As long as you stay on the same or adjacent axes (e.g, Mainframe of Order) so your patrons don't constantly conflict, there's no reason you can't serve two, and get double the benefits. and the Judge will never run out of quests, plot hooks and in-game tension.
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